I agree! People seem to be really mixed on this episode (even within my meager flist), but I highly enjoyed it, too. I felt very satisfied at the end. Sam expressed why he'd taken up with Ruby (altho' I think there MUCH more to it), Dean admitted his part in the apocalypse, and Dean even let Sam drive.

And the hunt was entertaining. Yes, they've done the pagan god thing before (& maybe better), but this one had me guessing, which I always like. Plus, Dean in the stovepipe hat with funny comment, Sam in the scrubs... ahhhh. ♥♥♥ too. ^_^

Well, it wasn't a very deep episode but it was a good old casefile MotW episode spiced with a whole lot of character development.

but this one had me guessing
Yes, exactly.

Haha I had a funny hat. ♥ I wish Dean could have kept it. It was adorable.

My God!! I've just watched it!!
I adored this episode! It had all things I love in SPN!
Loved Sammy speaking Spanish!! Guh!! *dies*
hahah! Dean never loses an opportunity!

I'm happy with SPN again!!! *hugs the show* LOL!!

Hehe, Sam's the language geek it seems. Latin, Spanish... I wonder which language they have in line next ;P

Dean never loses an opportunity!
No, he realy doesn't.

Can't wait for next week :)

Huh, hiatus? Jetzt schon wieder? *möpf*

Herrje, ich krieg vom Fandom überhaupt nix mehr mit.....

So wie's ausschaut kommt wohl nächste Woche doch noch ne neue Folge und dann erstmal bis November ne kleine Pause damit sie Folgen für die November Sweeps haben.

OMG Endlich mal wieder jemand auf meiner flist den ich kenne. Por! So selten wie ich hier noch reinschaue ist's wirklich so wie die Apokalypse.
Ich fand die Folge super für eine MOTW-Folge. Und wie geil war die Szene wo beide an den Laptops saßen. *hach*

Ich hoffe dir geht's gut? *wie wild den Terminkalender für Dezember vorblättert*
Ein Treffen im Dezember plane ich mit Euch, Email nächste Woche für Terminabsprache. Ich vermisse euch ächt voll!

Hehe, bin noch hier :) Und ich kann da nur zustimmen. Irgendwie kam so ein Staffel-1-Gefühl auf. *nostalgischer Seufzer* Bei der Laptop-Szene musste ich auch breit grinsen.

Mir geht's gut, danke. Nächste Woche gehen dann auch wieder die Veranstaltungen an der Uni los. Ooh *Weihnachtsmarkteroberung witter* Bin gerne dafür zu haben. Glücklicherweise arbeite ich ja nun auch nicht mehr abends, das ist für Treffen generell schonmal ein großes Plus *lach*

I didn't like it all that much, but hey, we agree on the best quote. *lol* And Dean under the car was hilarious! Maybe I need to rewatch it again to like it better.

Haha, that we do :D Well, it was more a MotW episode than the ones we got lately.

Yeah, they had to get back to those. And I liked Dean's reasoning for it. But ah, Paris still rubbed me the wrong way.

Oh boys ♥ They nailed that scene at the end of the episode. It's like they've come farther in trying to find common ground with the couple of talks this episode than they did the past year.

Well, actually they're back to status quo which plain sucks. I just LOVE the way Sam acts like an ass for a year and then doesn't understand if he's being treated like one. I LOVE the way Sam apparently hasn't managed "to grow up" in four seasons. Sorry to say this, but right now I wish they would just kill him off and be done with it. At the moment he's completely redundant for the story.

Also, seems like Dean did finally let go some of his anger and there's hoping Dean offering Sam to steer the wheel there at the end is the first step into acknowledging they're both equals in this fight.

Well, that's the problem. They're NOT. Me in Dean's place? Sam wouldn't even be allowed what to choose to have for dinner.

I love how they screw up this show every time I start to like it again.

Me in Dean's place? Sam wouldn't even be allowed what to choose to have for dinner.
Well, I think you have to consider the whole picture. What exactly is Sam's worst crime? That he made a bad choice while Dean was in Hell and got developed an addiction when he was devasted and lost because his brother was in Hell and there was jack he could do about it? Sure, he lied to Dean but that's what addicts do. Seems to me more that Sam knew just what he got himself into and wanted to shield Dean from it, wouldn't want to show him how low he's sunken without his big brother. It's typical addictive behavior.

As for Dean, it can't be healthy and it certainly doesn't serve anyone to hold a grudge that long. So for me, I'm glad for him and Sam that he made a step towards Sam.

Edited at 2009-10-11 06:31 pm (UTC)

Yeah. You don't need to tell me about addictive behaviour. Well, his worst crime was obviously making LOTS of really bad and stupid choices, which is odd considering he's supposed to be SOOOOOO smart. Sorry, but that was just ridiculous. Particularly the going back to Ruby and that semi-relationship when he perfectly knew she was a demon. Seriously.

As for Dean, it can't be healthy and it certainly doesn't serve anyone to hold a grudge that long.
That long? Seriously? He had a grudge for like,....a week and that's long? Plus, I'm not saying he shouldn't be holding a grudge at all, but Sam demanding equality and Dean just handing that over whilst Sam CLEARLY did not deserve it? Back to status quo. The writers just blew it. Character development my ass.

Particularly the going back to Ruby and that semi-relationship when he perfectly knew she was a demon. Seriously.
Don't be such a racist. She'd saved the boys often enough to have earned the boys' trust. Ruby's had loads of chances to have Sam earlier (ie. she didn't have to save Dean's life in Malleus Maleficarum). Additionally, she was Sam's dealer. You know, they've been all played. I really don't think one can go around pointing fingers.

Timewise, it was more than a week.

Sam demanding equality and Dean just handing that over whilst Sam CLEARLY did not deserve it?
Well, IMO if there's somebody admitting to their faults and making an effort to make amends, which Sam clearly is, you have a right to be pissed, sure, but what good does it do to give them an extra hard time? And especially since they're all they have left, the last family. Would you push that away? Sam is trying to make amends, and the worst that one could do is to not accept that. It's about forgiving. And if you can't even forgive family when the are in dire need for forgiveness and support over your own stubborn pride, then I'm sorry. I truly am. Dean made a step forward in this episode. He got off his high horse and forgave.

Edited at 2009-10-11 07:49 pm (UTC)

Don't be such a racist.
Oh please. That was the most ridiculous line of all season. That was the "Let's pretend we actually discuss political issues in the most ridicolous approach since the dawn of mankind" thingy.

she didn't have to save Dean's life in Malleus Maleficarum
Actually, she did have to in order to gain Sam's trust.

Sam is trying to make amends
Is he really? 'Cause all I've been seeing him doing is talk, talk, talk but not actually making amends. His "I'LL TOTALLY MAKE AMENDS BUT FIRST YOU HAVE TO START TREATING ME AS IF I HAD" approach is just such an arrogant move. Plu-hease. First actually make amends, then you can demand equality.

And if you can't even forgive family when the are in dire need for forgiveness and support over your own stubborn pride, then I'm sorry.
Yeah, because I'm of all people don't know how that feels right, right? And again, I'm not saying Dean shouldn't have forgiven him (but then Sam pretty much cornered him into it too), I'm just plainly annoyed that Sam had the NERVE to ask for it. Actually, not just ask but DEMAND it. Seriously.

He got off his high horse and forgave.
High horse would imply that Dean wasn't right. Which he was IMHO. He's been taking so much crap from Sam and he just continues to.

Wow. I really wish they weren't back together. The episodes were so much better when it was Sam angsting on his own and Castiel and Dean actually moving the plot forward.

And what actually bothers me most about this is how the writers use this scene as a very weak excuse to bring the brother's relationship back to status quo. I highly doubt they'll actually deal with the issues that should still be there. But nope. Sammy and Dean like each other again. THE END.


Edited at 2009-10-11 08:10 pm (UTC)

Actually, she did have to in order to gain Sam's trust.
Really? I think Sam would have been pretty easy prey after Dean's death either way. There was no acutal need to save Dean back then. Especially since Sam didn't even know Ruby would be able to have the right magic for that up her sleeve.

What would you have Sam do when it comes to amends? I do believe he's trying to do what's within doable realms. First, he tried to find solid ground. Removed himself from the active hunt to settle down and come to terms with what he's done. What was hinted at in Free to Be You and Me was that they both needed some time to find themselves and for Sam to remove himself from the lifestyle that is constantly tempting his addiction in order to come out of it stronger. In order to see that he doesn't need demon blood. To trust himself again. He didn't want to endanger Dean in being unconcentrated during a fight. So that seems a responsible thing to do.
Once Sam thought he was stable, he took the next step in making amends. He asked Dean to rejoin the hunt so he can actively wipe out Demons again that are free because of him triggering the Apocalpyse. Also, he's having Dean's back again.
What if not amends is that? The boy's trying. And really what more is there he could do?

Yeah, because I'm of all people don't know how that feels right, right?
Whoa, stop right there. You make that sound like a personal insult which it was not meant to be.

He's been taking so much crap from Sam
Been meaning to ask, you said Sam's been treating Dean like an ass all last season. Could you give examples. All I can come up with is not telling Dean about his addiction and being of a different opinion when it came to going after Lilith. Dean on the other hand was acting violently towards Sam the minute he found out that Sam used bad means to do good deeds. Fact is, it was wrong of Sam to drink the demon blood. Fact also is that it saved a lot of peoples life when using it for exorcising. It's not all that black and white but rather shades of gray.
Dean's so used to being the leader that he didn't exactly handle the situation all that well either. Instead of trying to deal with this and see the addiction for what it was, and as a result of how lost and vulnerable Sam was while he was in hell, he just pushes Sam away and gives order order orders. And we all know how well that strategy's worked with Sam all his lives.
They both made mistakes, they both made ill-formed decisions and in that they're both guilty.

The most character development they could have made was to admit to that and forgive and try to go forward and regroup. Dean keeping on dictating what and how to do it and shrugging Sam off all the time only made them dance around in circles. My two cents.

Really? I think Sam would have been pretty easy prey after Dean's death either way.
Well, she promised Sam she could help him save Dean. That was her first approach to get him try his powers. If that witch had killed Dean, there would have been nobody to save. Plus, I thought it was fairly obvious that she couldn't just waltz into their lives and declare she was on their side. She had to prove it too. Back then, Sam wasn't that dumb.

You make that sound like a personal insult which it was not meant to be.
Sorry if I overreacted, you just really hit a nerve there...

It's all just such a completely ridiculous plot device. And sorry, they both seemed happier on their own. Glad it only took Sam two weeks to get over his "addiction" though. I love how he's continually "I'm out--I'm in--no, wait I'm out--I want back in." *sigh*

And really what more is there he could do?
Realise that maybe being treated like a kid whose choices can't be trusted is justified at the moment? I love his "Alrighty, I'm back--YAY, GIVE ME RESPONSIBILITY" attitude. Not.

Fact: There are no shades of grey on SPN. The writers act like there are, but really, there aren't (or else Ruby would have actually been a "good" demon). Demons are evil. So are angels, yes, but they are clearly meant to be evil within their context, and there are no shades of grey in the choices they make.

Been meaning to ask, you said Sam's been treating Dean like an ass all last season. Could you give example.
Oh, I don't know--it's hard to pick between the lying to Dean, belittling him for being so "weak" and picking a demon over his brother. Repeatedly.

Dean on the other hand was acting violently towards Sam the minute he found out
I think comparing those two punches to the crap Sam pulled is like comparing apples with oranges IMHO.

Instead of trying to deal with this and see the addiction for what it was, and as a result of how lost and vulnerable Sam was while he was in hell, he just pushes Sam away and gives order order orders.

Right. Because Dean wasn't busy trying to deal with actually having been in Hell. (Or are you talking season 5 now?) Because I don't know--what else was he supposed to do? He DID try to talk bout it with Sam in 4x09 though.

The most character development they could have made was to admit to that and forgive and try to go forward and regroup.
Yes, but they did it by episode FIVE. I bet the writers and Kripke were so worried about the fans' reaction Sam's and Dean's drifting apart in season 4 that they quickly added this scene so early in the season so all can be back to normal by episode six. Which is just lame, and completely unrealistic.

Also, if Sam hasn't managed to "grow up" during two years at Stanford and four years on the road, maybe he should have someone to give him orders.

Gah, I can't believe how much I NOT care for that character right now, and I really used to like him. But now? They could write him off the show tomorrow and I wouldn't even blink.


Edited at 2009-10-11 08:48 pm (UTC)

I can't believe how much I NOT care for that character right now
Well, your heavily discussing the hell out of it kind of says something else here. And don't get this the wrong way, but why do you keep doing this to yourself? If you really feel all that towards the characters and the show and have been for over a year now, isn't it time to let go and tell yourself that you ought to drop it [the show]? Clearly, you love torturing yourself ;P *glomps*

Edited at 2009-10-11 08:57 pm (UTC)

No, you're getting this all wrong. I can't stand Sam, but I still like Dean. And the beginning of the season looked promising, with Dean's and Castiel's storyline (I fast-forwarded through some of Sam's scenes actually) and the quest for God and the Michael thing and the issue of whether or not Dean should say yes to the angels. That (and the additional depth they gave Castiel) was actually really good, and I enjoyed that muchly. So I allowed to get my hopes up ever so slightly that this season could turn out good only to have them crushed by the end of 5x05, but I do realise that I was only looking forward to the scenes that had Dean and Castiel. They have such a great dynamic. But now that Sam's back--feeling like the third wheel and redundant to me--and the show will sadly focus on the brothers again, this might be the last time I've actually cared to really discuss SPN characters :-) (And it has also ruined all my feeble urges to write SPN fic again :-) )

If I continue to watch, it'll be for Dean and Castiel only, and I'll keep quiet about it like I pretty much did through the second half of season 4 :-) I do know already there'll be certain episodes I'll just skip though.

Edited at 2009-10-11 09:07 pm (UTC)

I can't stand Sam, but I still like Dean.
I did get that, it's just that I find it a bit funny how you're reasoning about Sam if you've skipped through his scenes.

What I meant is that, judging by the way you wrote, you seem pretty riled up about the show at the moment and rather unhappy (like could they please kill off Sam). I mean, it's just a tv show, I don't want you to get all upset over it. ;P

Edited at 2009-10-12 12:36 pm (UTC)

I find it a bit funny how you're reasoning about Sam if you've skipped through his scenes.

It's hard to avoid his scenes if they're scenes with Dean, you know? ;-) But during 5x03, I basically went "Oh, mean hunters are after him, got it, kthxbai" and skipped to the next scene...

It's just that by the end of season 4 I really could have cared less about it, but the beginning of season 5 was actually good and now they go ahead and ruin it, and stuff like that just upsets me. Potential not used but thrown away like that (like Sam and Dean making up again by fucking episode FIVE even though a long and hard way back to each other could have been really intriguing) upsets me, I'm sorry.

It's just--doesn't Jared want to do movies anyway? Great. Kill Sam off, keep Misha and Jensen and the show could be good again. Episode four and all scenes with Dean and Castiel in episode three proved that *sigh*

But yeah, I'll shut up now.

But during 5x03, I basically went "Oh, mean hunters are after him, got it, kthxbai" and skipped to the next scene...
Well, there actually were some key scenes when it comes to Sam and finding back to himself. Besides, he spit that demon blood back out that the hunters forced into his mouth. It would have been so easy to just swallow. But he symbolically overcame his addiction in that moment with the taste of his weakness on his tongue.

now they go ahead and ruin it
Which is where we diasgree. Which is fine, just saying. I don't want Jared to go away and do movies, I'd rather they take away some of the Dean Show and engange Sam more, you know.

Oh, you mean the cheesy talks with the girl?

It would have been so easy to just swallow. But he symbolically overcame his addiction in that moment with the taste of his weakness on his tongue.
Oh yeah. I loved that completely blatant way of showing how he "overcame" his addiction. BTW you mentioned his behaviour in season four was typical for an addicted person? Well, overcoming an addiction does NOT work like that. It's harder. But, because Sammy is super-willed and SUPER-strong and all that, spitting out a bit of blood is "overcoming an addiction" in SPN verse? Sorry, not buying that. Either they should have made the addiction happening in his head, or go through with it all the way. Because the treatment of addicts here is offensive to actual addicts.

'd rather they take away some of the Dean Show and engange Sam more, you know.
Oh God, no, the least the show needs is more of Sam's pseudo-angst and three facial expressions. Jared's acting used to be better but by now--dunno, it kind of feels like he would much rather be doing films. He's getting sloppy. I'm all for the Dean Show. Actual plot! Good dynamics between the characters! Yay!

Dude, it's a tv-show. You're taking this way too seriously. And even in season one there's been stuff in episodes that would be offensive to people. It's not like it's an invention of season 4/5.

I'm all for the Dean Show. Actual plot! Good dynamics between the characters! Yay!
You know, we're obviously of very opposite opinions here, so I'd appreciate it if we could leave it at that and not pick on this any further, it's giving me a headache.

And even in season one there's been stuff in episodes that would be offensive to people.
But back then, they didn't attempt to tackle such serious issues only to handle them completely wrong. That's the difference.

OK.